Friday, 27 June 2008
7 comments:
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Oranjepan said...
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There is an interesting question behind this issue which sparks controversy every time it is raised. So please permit me.
Nation states are not all formed on the same basis and definitely not in the same image.
There are those formed on the concept of territorial integrity, some based on ethno-cultural congruity and others as an evolved economic network.
Which is most legitimate? Which is most stable? Which is most successful?
Most (all?) violent conflicts devolve down to some form of conceptual disputes of this order.
From a historical perspective most (all?) nations have struggled to find definition on all those grounds simultaneously and continuously, yet strikes me is how global polity has continued in a steady upward trajectory across whichever period one cares to consider irrespective of any selective national focus. -
1 September 2008 19:50
- James Schneider said...
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"global polity has continued in a steady upward trajectory across whichever period one cares to consider irrespective of any selective national focus". Please elucidate, I'm not sure I follow.
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1 September 2008 20:00
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Oranjepan said...
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Generally the fall of Rome is described as a collapse, but the truth is that the dark ages weren't actually any poorer than the preceding period.
Similarly Putin's description of the fall of the Soviet system as a calamity for Russian society ignores how we have experienced massive growth on an unprecedented and global scale since then.
While there are individual losers and inequality levels have grown since then, surely it is also important to recognise the gains made at all levels since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
So adjustments in administrative boundaries (like national borders, or EU/Nato membership) can be seen on one level as a reflection of the constantly evolving balance of national power and international integration.
How we tend to describe these processes is usually a reflection of our own biased perspective, but I'd push anyone to point to a period during which general progress was negative - even for periods of dramatic conflict and massive devastation. -
2 September 2008 22:42
- James Schneider said...
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I could try and take a particular time (WWII) for example or quibble about a particular century but I take your general point.
But what about the Nation State are you trying to say by stating the general positive upswing? -
2 September 2008 22:48
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Oranjepan said...
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Ah, well, I think the description of the nation state as both too big and too small to deal with the problems Chris Dillow describes is correct, but also that to base analysis on this selective and simplistic description is to ignore the fact that nation states are both agglomerations of smaller units and constituent parts of wider networks.
The point is that governmental adminstration operates at multiple levels simultaneously and requires coordination, so I agree we all agree about the false contextualisation of the problem as 'national', but I think it is a fair point of discussion to ask at which level specific powers should reside.
On that basis, I can understand disputes over comparison of the relative state of polity at individual moments of history, but I would argue (somewhat counter-intuitively I admit, but nevertheless rationally) that over the course of any particular period total volume of global political and economic activity grows to surpass previous levels - so, during WWII (or any other period) the progressive social transformation in the face of all challenges is actually what enabled the more dynamic and healthy forces of liberty and democracy to emerge victorious, despite the visceral evidence of devastation and the millions of victims who bore the suffering - as soon as the Axis failed to gain a quick resolution they ensured their eventual defeat by attrition. -
3 September 2008 01:53
- James Schneider said...
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you appear to have a somewhat whig view of history. I'd watch out for that.
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4 September 2008 09:54
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Oranjepan said...
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Haha, that's funny, I'm not panglossian.
No, not really in the short-term or the extreme long-term, however in the intermediate period we are all looking to make things better and if you believe that truth is the only coherent path then history will attest to veracity.
Think of how many artists, scientists or thinkers who languished in obscurity outside the accepted canon during their lifetimes and yet are lauded for their contributions to their field since - all fortunes wax and wane in both general terms and in relation to themselves and will continue to evolve in perpetuity.
The term 'whig view of history' is the same as Fukuyama's 'end of history' in the way it is misapplied to criticise liberal thinking because the 'whig view' predates Darwin (which it learns to encompass and integrate) while the 'end of history' translates into the beginning of the future.
I guess I can't stop answering yes AND no! -
5 September 2008 21:35








I just left a rather long comment on Chris Dillow's post about the nation state. It was so long, I though I might as well post it myself.
Here's what Chris had to say:What use are nation states? Two different problems raise this question. One is Zimbabwe. The notion that national sovereignty has a value provides a cloak for Mugabe’s brutality, whilst the difficulty of co-ordinating national governments means little is done to stop it. The other problem is inflation. Many governments claim inflation is an imported problem. And they are right in the sense that global factors seem to be increasing relative to national ones as causes of inflation. This means national monetary policy is less able to control inflation. This raises the question. Could it be that nation states are just too small to solve some important problems? They are not big enough to solve some coordination problems, or to restrain tyrants, or to internalize externalities - think of climate change. And yet, in other senses they are too big. The Economist reports that Americans are increasingly choosing to live with like-minded people, suggesting nation states aren’t providing a sense of fraternity and unity. Not a day passes without yet more evidence that national governments display the incompetence arising from diseconomies of scale. And it’s a cliché that people are alienated from national politics or that national provision of public services is unresponsive to individual needs. So, here are my questions. What are the problems which are best solved by national governments rather than global government or smaller-scale authorities (and the individual is, of course, a very important small-scale authority)? What should be the criteria we use for answering that question? If nation states did not exist, would we these days feel a pressing need to invent them?
And my answer:
The nation state is an institution without inherent meaning or truth behind it, it is incompetent in many regards, and people appear willing to give them a kicking (SNP, Belgium, or individual US states operating their own Kyoto targets for example). Yet it persists and there is little reason to suggest that it will wither away any time soon, nor is there the suggestion that its role will become more carefully and sensibly delineated as you suggest is necessary. The reason for this is three fold. Firstly, the new smaller governmental or organizational areas of say regions or counties would begin to foster their own identity creating, in essence, a micro state which would guard its "rights" strongly and would dislike the fact that much of its sovereignty lies elsewhere. This merely creates more entities that want to be nation states (national self-determination and all that), ill at ease with each other. Secondly, to supersede the nation state not only requires local communities to step up and take over roles formerly ascribed to the national government, such as education, but also a giving away of powers to a supra-national organization. In order for this to work every component nation of that super structure would have to be on the same time line of self-dismantlement. For "sovereign powers", such as limited fiscal powers, environment, continental transport, development policy, defense, immigration, and foreign policy, to be removed from the citizens of the nation state they will have to be compensated by a much greater control over the rest of their lives. This requires every state within the supranational organization to go through the process together. This is institutionally difficult and some members will not be able to wait and see the benefits before joining.
Thirdly, our political institutions, language, points of reference are built around the nation state. The post WWII order is sculpted around them. We may very well argue that the nation states of Europe would be better served by local rule and the EU and that many African or Middle Eastern States have little to no real reason for existing as they do today. However, it will take something to fundamentally shake, disturb, and cause the reshaping of this order for this to change. I'm not sure we want to see that.
We may not like the nation state. It may be stupid. It may not work very well but any attempt at change will require widespread contempt for the people's wishes. A state, or supra-national entity can not be formed or fundamentally altered in a sustainable manner if the people are overwhelmingly against it. In theory we can see which areas of government should be hived up and which pushed down but in practice, the best we can hope for is increased international cooperation between nation states on issues for which they are too small, and a localization of democracy and the affairs of government within these nation states.
The Nation State is here. We have to deal with that.